7 Bad Signs not to Work for a Software Company or Startup

I’d vote for: Key-hole perspective

In late 2007 I went to an interview where part of the interview was in the form of a free discussion (a good sign, BTW). As the conversation progressed I made the comment that dynamic languages are rising and that static typing is certainly not the only the game in town. My remark was received with something close to contempt: “Come on. Do you really think that one can write serious apps in Ruby/Python/Javascript?”

It was at that very moment that I realized that I should not join them. I am not saying that they must use a dynamically typed languages. There are valid reasons for which a company may use a statically typed language. But, I do expect them to be aware of what is going outside. I do expect them to make educated arguments against Ruby/Python/JS. Saying that it is not suited for a serious app is narrow mindedness.

#4 – “They don’t let you talk to or see developers” – What questions do you normally ask? Just curious. Thanks. -G

“Bonus points for Macs.” – Why? Is it because they cost a lot more and would make you think that the company had a lot more money than they said they did.
Also, I’ve been working for software firms and computer departments for 10 years and I have never had a PC like you describe there. I agree that you should look out for ageing computers and broken looking CRTs, but not state-of-the art stuff that could easily beat Kasparov at chess.

Oh come on, where’s the sense of adventure? Was it lost sitting on top of the marble pedestal for all you glorious developers? Sometimes your measure of worth is how much you get done with less. Our fore-fathers didn’t have Intellisense when they crossed the Delaware… uh… the Silicon Valley.

So get off your high horses and see a small biz or startup as an opportunity. When good policies are lacking, you can take the initiative and straighten them out. You become the hero and a valuable part in its success. Unless, of course, you are too busy whining about coding in a text editor from the command line.

“bonus for macs” ??

kind of fanboyish of you to say that.

I wrote a similar list recently:
http://adamac.blogspot.com/2008/10/10-startup-red-flags.html

uh no bonus points for macs, it depends on what your developing.

macs aren’t just better, especially if you are talking about desktop systems. if you are buying a big beefy desktop, you can get 2x+ the hardware and throw your favorite version of linux on there and be way ahead.

#8: You see a copy of “Design Patterns” anywhere on anyone’s desk, especially any technical leads. Run as far and as fast as you can.

@Philip:

“Bonus points for Macs.” – Why? Is it because they cost a lot more and would make you think that the company had a lot more money than they said they did.”

The main reason – just personally – is that Unix is the better programming enviroment compared to Windows. An no, Cygwin is not a solution. Macs combine Unix and applications like Office in a nice way, better than Linux.

Apple more expensive? I’ve lately researched the prices of PowerMacs versus Dell, 8 core machines cost nearly the same (Dell 10% cheaper). The same for laptops (Compared Lenovo, Dell & Apple)

“Also, I’ve been working for software firms and computer departments for 10 years and I have never had a PC like you describe there.”

The last 4 companies I’ve worked for, had this setups – adjusted for the year I’ve worked there.

“I agree that you should look out for ageing computers and broken looking CRTs, but not state-of-the art stuff that could easily beat Kasparov at chess.”

The companies I’ve worked for usually gave computers first to developers, and the older ones to others (marketing usually does not need quad core machines).

@GaryF: How long have they’ve been there, who do they like it, ask about the hardware.

Not all will be rosy – but that’s the way it is. You need to put everything they say into perspective.

> They don’t let you talk to or see developers

A company allowed me to see one of its developers. But the recruiter didn’t tell me that he was an external consultant ;-) and he didn’t present himself as such (i didn’t even ask). I discovered it the first day, i only saw him 1 day then he left.

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@uh no: Yes, “Macs for bonus points” was for web development, not if your developing Windows applications. I sometime focus to much on web development (where I have worked the last 15 years).

@Ion: Well kind of – but I currently do not use Macs – my private one is broken and my company doesn’t give me one.

But I still believe Macs are more efficient – if you’re willing to learn shell/Unix than Windows. And more efficient than Linux because of desktop applications. Nothing to do with fanboyism.

@Yankee: “So get off your high horses and see a small biz or startup as an opportunity.”

As I’ve said, if your willing to take the risk, go ahead. Intellisense? Did machine code for years only armed with an editor … it was fun, and it was crazy but I wouldn’t want to go back. Seriously.

@Adam: Thanks for sharing your list here.

Make sure the hours and environment suit you.

A minor “annoyance” on Day One turns into a daily grind and eventually torture over time.

“We work flex hours. Almost everybody comes in before 8 am.”

“If you’re young and like to take risks, it can be a worthwhile journey though”

What if you’re old and like to take risks? Are worthwhile journeys only for kids?

@alice: If you are old, have kids, need to pay for a house, not enough money in your pension plan it might be not that easy to take risks – especially when it gets harder to get a job after the startup you’ve worked for goes belly up.

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These are all very good points, but in regard to number 1 & 2, for me it’s not enough that they have version control and “top tools” – I want to hear the words “continuous integration” and “unit tests”. Also, I want to know they have a commitment to engaging their developers to further their process and I certainly won’t work for companies that still use waterfall-derived methodologies.

There’s a a few other red flags, such as:

* allowing non-developers to choose the tooling that developers use. developers should always choose their tools without exception.

* understanding their build system needs to be cared for, maintained and upgraded occasionally. Personally I find Ant a total PITA nowadays, I hate it and if a company was building on Ant they’d really have to give me a good reason to like them.

* using proprietary tools when open source ones will do the job (as they are usually better).

* as for computers, I refuse to develop on Windows machines, if they are committed to a Windows-only environment I won’t be taking that job. I prefer Macs personally but Linux or other Unix variants are just as OK.

“Nothing to do with fanboyism.” Yeah, right. That’s what all the Mac fanboys believe; that buying/using a Mac is entirely an objective decision.

@Rusty Wright: “That’s what all the Mac fanboys believe;”

I’ve told you the rational reasons why I think – and many software companies do think the same e.g. LinkedIn – MacOS is better for (web) software development.

Ad hominem attacks are a poor reply.

Seems like a reference to Joel’s 2000 article is relevant

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html

> If you interview with a startup, ask them how much money they have and how long it lasts

Shame on you Stephan for suggesting this!

This is one sure way to get rejected for asking inappropriate questions. It’s also highly unlikely that you’ll be able to understand the answer, even if the interviewers are stupid enough to answer.

A company’s financials are none of your business as an employee, let alone as prospective candidate. If you really want to get an idea of their financial stability, ask the less invasive “how stable are your finances, have you secured funds to keep me employed for a month, 6 months or a year?”. Even this approach will probably backfire, as it shows your need for stability, something they will never be able to promise you.

Stop pretending we live in a certain world and do something that makes you want to get out of bed in the morning.

@Coward:

“This is one sure way to get rejected for asking inappropriate questions. It’s also highly unlikely that you’ll be able to understand the answer, even if the interviewers are stupid enough to answer.”

If you inform yourself first, you surely understand the answer.

All companies I’ve interviewed with have answered this.

“A company’s financials are none of your business as an employee, let alone as prospective candidate.”

In my opinion it is my business if I need to find a new job in 3 months, especially if I give up my current job for a new one.

Any way that you can suppress all those circular reference comments. They are so “me too” and aren’t adding much to your original article.

It might be worth updating the original article to have a reference to The Joel Test (http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/fog0000000043.html) mentioned by @Jatra.

@Gordon: You mean beside “As Joel says in the legendary Joel Test” ?

A while ago Bruce Eckel published a series of “Interview Questions You Wish You Had Asked”, can’t find the link to it but this was the list. I still use these this day in interviews (amongst other questions):

* If I want to buy something like a book or a tool, how does the process work (how hard is it?).
* What’s the cost limit before the approval must go up the management chain?
* What’s the noise level like during the day?
* How many meetings am I expected to attend, and how long do they usually last?
* Is there a dress code?
* Can I work from home sometimes?
* Does it matter when I work, as long as I come to meetings?
* How many projects have succeeded/failed in the last five years? To what do you attribute the failures?

Hi,

in your last paragraph, you say :

“As shown in several studies, the easiest way to gain lots of productivity is two screens.”

could you give me pointers to theses studies ?

@JPC:

One entry point would be here:

http://www.humis.utah.edu/humis/docs/organization_951_1147817063.pdf

and

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/groups/cue/publications/INTERACT2003-ProductivityLargeDisplays.pdf

“Bonus points for Macs”

Yes, definitely and (of course) only if you’re not developing Windows-only desktop applications.

One of the things that I do is study development environments before we hand it over to them, we do this regularly. The latest I have tried is Ubuntu, Fedora and Mac OS X, criteria is too long to post here in terms of productivity and usability Mac OS X still leads.

And no, Macs do not cost more, HP’s and Lenovo’s running Redhat turns out to be more expensive based on our local sources.

7 Bad Signs are not enough for a proper decision! Stephan, your eyes are blined by a bright pure technical ligth. A developer is also an emplyee as every other person that works for the company.

* What about the overall professional behaviour of the company representatives?
* What about the products they are selling – are they really decent?
* What about the education budget?
* What about additional benfits of the job and your new position?
* What about the number of vacation days they offer you?
* It is also very important to check out if you fit in the team and the company at all.

I can think of a lot of more important points that can influence your future in the new company.

I have to agree with seeing your working environment.

Once you have worked with more then one screen it’s very hard to go back.

If the company business is not primary IT sometimes it can be very hard making them understand why you need certain kit and your more likely to get hand me downs.

It almost got to the point where I purchased my own screens.

And just because it’s a large company don’t expect the best kit they are often the worst.